MSNBC Hardball Transcript

November 6, 2003 Thursday

HEADLINE: HARDBALL For November 6, 2003

BYLINE: Chris Matthews; David Shuster; Lawrence O'Donnell

GUESTS: John Edwards Zell Miller; Saxby Chambliss; Jay Rockefeller; Betsy Hart

HIGHLIGHT:
John Edwards talks about why Democrats have trouble in the South and what the strategy should be in Iraq; Zell Miller explains why he's disappointed with the Democratic candidates.

BODY:
ANNOUNCER: Now, on HARDBALL with Chris Matthews, the battle for the White House heats up. Chris goes one-on-one with presidential candidate John Edwards on the war in Iraq and his feud with frontrunner Howard Dean.

Why can't the Democrats win in the South? Chris asks Georgia Senator Zell Miller, a Democrat who's given up on his party's presidential candidates.

Are Democrats on Capitol Hill playing politics with classified intelligence about Iraq? Senator Jay Rockefeller and Senator Saxby Chambliss face off in the "HARDBALL Debate."

And the "Political Buzz" with columnist Betsy Hart and political analyst Lawrence O'Donnell. Now, here's Chris Matthews.

CHRIS MATTHEWS, HOST: I'm Chris Matthews. Let's play HARDBALL.

The big story tonight, Democratic presidential candidate Senator John Edwards joins us tonight from New Hampshire with the latest from the campaign trail.

Senator Edwards, let's take a look at what you said about politics in the South.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN EDWARDS (D-NC), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Let me tell you the last thing we need in the South. Somebody like you coming down and telling us what we need to do.

The people that I grew up with, the vast majority of them, they don't drive around with Confederate flags on pickup trucks.

One of the problem that we have with young people today, is people talk down to you. Exactly the same thing happens with people from the South. I have seen it. I have grown up with it. I'm here to tell you, it is wrong. It is condescending. And the only way that we, as a party, are going to win the White House back is to reach out to everybody and treat them with the dignity and respect that they're entitled to.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: Can you explain what caused that had concern you've just raised rather dramatically against former Governor Howard Dean? Why did you go after him right there?

EDWARDS: Because, Chris, what he said, which was reaching out, he wanted to be the candidate for voters in the South who drove pickup trucks with Confederate flags on the back, created two problems.

One is, this symbol of this incredibly divisive symbol, which is the Confederate flag, is one that we've tried very hard to get past. It's an incredibly sensitive issue, particularly for African-Americans. And at least there was some indication that Governor Dean wanted to reach out to those people.

The second one was...

MATTHEWS: If he had said, we're going out to look at the NASCAR fans, would that have made the point better?

EDWARDS: Yes, it would have. It would have been different, I think.

And the second, and actually the one that I was more focused on in the debate was stereotyping Southern white voters as people who drive around with pickup trucks with Confederate flags on the back.

I think one of the problems that we have had as a party, not just in the South but in other parts of the country, is sort of a perception that sometimes we talk down to people. And I think it is enormously important that we be sensitive to and not stereotype people, and be sensitive to and treat with respect people from all parts of the country, including the South.

MATTHEWS: Let's take a look at what Dean had to say at the Democratic National Committee meeting back in February, where he expressed basically the same language that he used that concerned you this week, Senator.

Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HOWARD DEAN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I intend to talk about race during this election in the South because the Republicans have been talking about it since 1968 in order to divide us. And I'm going to bring us together.

Because you know what? You know what? White folks in the South who drive pickup trucks with Confederate flag decals in the black ought to be voting with us and not them, because their kids don't have health insurance either and their kids need better schools, too.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: That was Howard Dean back nine months ago, Senator. Why didn't you make the dramatic statement against him then, and why did you wait until this week when he said the same exact thing this week?

EDWARDS: Well, first of all, I wasn't there when he made that statement. I had no idea that he'd said that. The first time that I was aware that he'd used this kind of language was when I heard it from a reporter in Iowa. So I didn't know that he had said it before. If I'd known it then, I would have spoken out against it then, because it created the same problem then as it does now.

MATTHEWS: Last night, NBC, a report by Campbell Brown had a guy driving a pickup truck in the South, and he had a Confederate flag on the back of it. And they stopped and interviewed him and said why are you against the Democrats? He said because they all they care about are the minorities.

How much of it is in the South, and you're from North Carolina, that is simply fact that after the civil rights bills were passed in the '60s, voting rights included, African-Americans basically joined the Democratic Party more than 90 percent.

Did that, in fact, cause the Democratic Party to be identified with blacks and their concerns over those of white Southerners? Is that what happened?

EDWARDS: Well, first of all, we as a party did the right thing in the 1960s, to fight for civil rights and stand up for African-Americans' equality. And did it play a role in helping drive Southerners away from—white Southerners away from the party? There's no question that over a period of time, that had an effect.

But what's equally true is most of the people, that was decades ago, Chris. What's equally true, that while we have progress to make, and I'd be the first to acknowledge that, not just in the South but in other parts of the country.

The people that I grew up with in rural North Carolina, the vast majority of them believe in equality. They want to be treated as equals. They want to be treated as people who can make a huge contribution, who want to educate their kids, want to make sure their kids have healthcare, they have a decent job. They do care about these substantive issues. But they don't want me or anybody else talking down to them. And that's really what this is about. Or stereotyping them.

MATTHEWS: Why do you think Dean is leading in the South in this latest Zogby poll? Admittedly, it's not the biggest poll in the world, but it's him at 13 and you at eight. And this is a guy—he's a Northerner and you're a Southerner. Why is he winning in the South?

EDWARDS: Well, he's not winning in the places where they have a campaign. For example, in South Carolina, if you look at all the polls as a whole, I have somewhere between an eight and a 12-point lead in South Carolina. There we have an engaged campaign. Governor Dean has been running television ads over a long period of time, longer than me and I still have a double-digit lead over him.

But I really want to emphasize here, Chris, I think this is not just about the South. This is important for the entire country. Because if we're running for the nomination for the country, we need to reach out to all parts of the country.

MATTHEWS: Yes. I've got to tell you that race is not only an issue in the South. I grew up in Philadelphia and we just had a mayor's race up there. And I'll tell you, it was very divisive along racial lines.

Let me ask you about the big question the other day. Let's take a look at the president. He had a speech that he just made the other day. In fact, he made it today. About the question as to our role, our role in the Mideast.

Let's take a look at it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Sixty years of western nations excusing and accommodating the lack of freedom in the Middle East did nothing to make us safe, because in the long run, stability cannot be purchased at the expense of liberty.

As long as the Middle East remains a place where freedom does not flourish, it will remain a place of stagnation, resentment, and violence, ready for export.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: Senator Edwards, that is about the strongest ideological statement I've heard in a long time from the White House. Here we are saying that our job as Americans is to help create democracy in the Middle East, go to all the countries, including our friends like Egypt and Jordan and Morocco and all those Arab countries that have been on our side and trying to find peace over there and saying, "That's not enough. We want to you become democracies."

This, to me, fits very much with his speech last year at West Point where he said we're going to go to war with countries that have tyrannies. We're going to take down countries whose politics we don't like.

Is this going too far? Is this playing policeman?

EDWARDS: I think it goes too far. Particularly when you look at the way, what comes behind the rhetoric, which is a unilateralist interventionist policy using the military, using our military might.

Of course, we want—we as a nation want to promote freedom and democracy around the world. But there are many tools available to us to do that. And one of the most critical components of being successful is that we not try to do it by ourselves, that we do it with others, with the international community. And that's what's missing from this president.

MATTHEWS: Let me ask but the question of troop levels. It's become a roiling issue in the capital and around the country. You know, Senator McCain the other day, yesterday, said he thought we should more troops, many more troops in Iraq.

Have any people including the secretary of defense saying we have the right component, the right complement of troops.

Is that about a bigger question of how long we're going to stay there? What our mission's going to be? What's this fight over troop levels really about?

EDWARDS: I think it's about multiple things.

One is it is a very dangerous insecure environment right now in Iraq. And do troop levels play some role in that? Probably.

But I think it also raises the very question that you're asking now. Which is, what is the long-term plan? Because at least from perspective—and you and I have talked about this before—for this mission to be successful, it is critically important that the United Nations, that other countries and our allies be involved so that we internationalize this effort.

My view is, we ought to turn the Iraqi civilian authority over to the United Nations tomorrow. We have to change the dynamic on the ground. And we should not continue to occupy this country alone.

MATTHEWS: Let's take a look at what Secretary Rumsfeld did have to say about troop strength.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: The combat units serving in Iraq and most of the supporting units in the theater will be replaced over the coming period of months.

We've notified some 85,000 combat personnel comprising active units and three guard combat brigades that they'll be rotating into the theater. To support them, the Department of Defense began alerting some 43,000 guard and reserve that they may be mobilized for service in Operation Iraqi Freedom.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: That sounds like he's not really changing policy. Would it be your advice, generally speaking, that we put more troops there or rely on international forces?

EDWARDS: We need to bring international forces in. This is very simple.

MATTHEWS: Let me ask you about the campaign. How is it going right now? Do you feel that you're one of the top contenders right now for this Democratic nomination? Is it wide open? How would you describe the fight right now for the Democratic nomination for president?

EDWARDS: I think I'm right at the top. I've made huge progress in Iowa. I went on your show in Boston and went up dramatically in the state of New Hampshire. I'm giving you credit for that, Chris. I want to be fair about that.

MATTHEWS: I accept anybody that says I'm powerful. I'm glad to accept it. Just kidding. I'm not powerful. You are. You're doing very well, Senator. And thank you very much for coming on HARDBALL again tonight.

EDWARDS: Thanks, Chris. Nice to be with you.

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